Monday, 12 August 2013

3D figures and current status of Project E

Thou shalt not criticize Dawn

Well now, I almost got my ass handed to me over at Renderosity for being a tad critical of Hivewire3D's new figure, Dawn. Luckily I managed to close of some of the discussion in a peaceful way with 'the Great Uncle LROG' before the thread was closed. Unfortunately I couldn't respond to some of the other comments that were made. I kindof felt like a atheist evolutionary biologist attending a Christian fundamentalist mass... man they really love Dawn already (and she's really not that amazing).

There were complaints that we should've started earlier during the development process with our arguments about genitals. Well, the thing is the lack of genitals was expected, and therefore almost not even worth bitching about. I waited like everyone else to see how the figure worked and moved. Those were my primary comments. The genital thing I could've left out actually, but I also didn't know about the polycount down there. Reports were conflicting from before the release. So all-in-all I thought it was best to wait until I saw it for myself. At the end of the day, 9 August was a day of presenting a product, and it is only fair to be critical about it when they're finished, or not?


So about these genitals, much discussion was about why they never integrate them. LROG said it was their choice, and they have the right to it. Yeah, that's true, but don't forget that these are the guys that kindof pave the road for the 3D community, or which part of that community is the 3DX community. 

They do kindof force certain parts of the community in certain ways. We'd mostly think in terms of opportunities in that case, but I don't know if that's always a good thing though. Again some poor vendor has to unfuck a barren 3D figure. Sure its good money for the vendor in the end, but not all vendors are that good, and not all vendors feel like having to unfuck every dolly that comes out. Users will again have to spend hundreds of dollars until they get something that works nicely with the model. Apparently Karina's and Lali's props have been tested for Dawn and somehow seems doable (although I doubt it would look good), so in this instance it might not be as bad. But the idea is that we are again presented with a choice: make it yourself? wait? lag behind? do without? stick with V4?

How much do you want a female 3D figure with integrated genitals?


So anyway, the stage gets set by these companies that don't wanna get associated with explicit sex. One dude over at Renderosity said that my art is pornographic. Call me stupid but I never really made that association! For me it is just art; naughty, fun, sexy art. Can I live with that label? hm, sure, but porno means something else to me: senseless fucking with no story, amusement or emotion with very bad actors. I don't really feel that I am making porno. 

So basically these companies don't wanna get associated with the pornographic possibilities of the 3D figures they make, and that's why they persistently refuse to integrate genitals for them.

Labels, associations, gaahh!! Nothing gets taken for its true value anymore; as soon as they see a cute chick flaunting her bits, its porno and nothing else! And yet in the master bedrooms of most family households, the wife and the husband get up to all kinds of mischief, while the kids sleep across the hall. An that is not porno? When they take innocent pictures, is that porno? Pff. The scenes of Jim fucking Lali are my representation of a bubbly chick being very naughty with her boss, somewhat innocent, but somewhat cunning. there is intent behind the whole scene. Where the porno in that?

Accepting the bullshit

Anyway, no use arguing. Some people think my work is downright senseless porn, even if I disagree. Therefore we can probably also not blame DAZ and Hivewire3D for being worried to be labelled so aggressively like that. So I guess we can forgive them for not making pussy. But seriously, outside of the genital thing, Dawn is really not that amazing! Aaah. I can get so annoyed with that, this silly hype! Sure, I agree, it was about bloody time someone came with a new decent
figure for Poser, but preferably something that was a significant improvement over the existing norm. Dawn is not that figure! 

Anyway, in general these hypes are so annoying. Seriously, if I come out with project E and people will say its amazing, I will be grateful, but still sceptical. Stuff is bound to go wrong and people are bound to disagree with choices I've made. For example, I'm wanna step away from that square style of UV mapping and go rectangular. I'm sure there's some technical reason why that is a problem, but I yet have to hear it. Until then, I'm just going ahead with it. Dawn's biggest fuck-up (and I mean FUCK-UP) is the location of the thigh pivot. That just cannot be good, to deviate from anatomical correctness in a 3D model that is supposed to replicate a human. Hmm.

Stop bitching Ero...

So anyway, on conclusion, nobody is really making anything good nowadays, just the same old stuff with minor improvements here and there. I admit I've been very sceptical of Genesis, but it is actually very innovative of DAZ. The idea is good, and it seems to give nice results at times. But there are also many issues with it, as many DAZ folks themselves will admit, and obviously, no pussy, and Poser users don't even bother with it, DSON being the absolute worst invention in the world.

So what to do? 

Yes yes I've semi-announced it several times, but I was always a little hesitant (because I've never done this before!! aah). But now I feel even more motivated to make my own fucking figure! It is inevitable. That's what it comes to, because they cannot get over their unwillingness to associate themselves with PORNO therefore some poor bastard in Africa has to sort it out. In one way I find the idea very relieving because now I get to call the shots, and trust me, I'm not going to be anal about bundles and merchandise and suck you dry for all your cash. But in the other way I find it annoying that I'm going to have to spend time to make something that much more experienced people could probably make in a week, but are to chicken to do it.

Luckily I've got quite some fellas supporting me, some in high places! I also might have some people helping out with the development of parts of the mesh and textures even. Enough beta-testers obviously haha (if I haven't replied yet, thanks!).

Comics to guide me

So can I do this? Errrmmm, yeah I think I can, but it will take time. I don't wanna be in a hurry and make crap though. I'll stick to my primary motivation that I need a nicely working figure for my comics, and they will be developed within the context of comics. So you will see a few comics emerge before it will come out. It basically guarantees the usefulness of it, and that it is fit enough for use in a comic That should be a good standard, right? Off course I cannot guarantee that I'll cater for everyone, but since Lali's Bits, I think I've got a rough idea of what people really really want.

Where am I?

Well I started a few months ago, under the guidance of an experienced dude in the scene. He is very motivated and also well connected to make things happen, marketing-wise. I actually made two meshes already, but the first one was all triangles hahaha. OOPS. That's how beginner I was. But it was a very nice mesh! Anyway, I went on to educate myself with some tutorials and instruction videos about figure-making and working with quads. And a better mesh resulted. 

It is a slender, and rather featureless base mesh. The reason I do that is because of something I like to call 'fat-on-bones' rigging. So when you add fat or 'volume' to the mesh, the folding between the limbs will have the tendency to squeeze together more naturally than if you'd do with a more defined mesh. Lali's pudgy build on the V4 base mesh is an example of how it works. So once I had the base mesh sorted out, off course I spent a full month farting around with various areas of the mesh, adding polys here, removing polys there... manually. And obviously the symmetry went all out of whack. But finally I do have a mesh that is very symmetrical, 100% quad, and seems to bend fine.


It is definitely as hiRes as V4, and together with her genitals, she's even higher. Don't let this frighten you. Remember that on top of your V4 you add a prop with all those polygons. Now it is integrated, and therefore more efficient. But I will also try to provide versions without genitals, or a very minimal one, to minimize the polycount, for like background figures. You can also just hide it, and the render time will be just as effective, in my experience. In my opinion DAZ and Hivewire3D should've given these options, but no, it takes some bugger in Africa to come with such flexibility.

Too good to be true?

Scared to get your hopes up? Yeah me too, but I can guarantee that it will be made. Whether it will be good enough to cater for your artistic needs, that we'll have to see. For me it will be good, obviously, because I'm the one developing it. So chances are you'll be happy with it. I must warn you I have 3 powerful computers to work with, two dedicated renderers. So I might neigh towards a figure that does need a decent PC to work properly. But most likely not more drastic than our regular V4. I don't wanna kill my workflow either.

V4 transplant

You'll see Lali's head on a few of these images, that is because I literally transplanted a V4 head onto Project E's torso. I wanted to make a script that would swap the heads of these figures for those that done wanna let go of their favourite V4 characters. I managed, but only manually. The neck polygroup seemed to cause a problem because the bordering faces didn't match up properly with each other. So not sure if I can pull that off.


I already started dicking round with JCMs but they still need a lot of work, and some need redoing. I might have to reshape the base mesh to make the JCMs work properly. The eventual figure will be weight mapped, but only at the last moment. Legacy zones provide the mathematical linearity that is useful for some morphing tricks. 

Poser, DS?

Although I am not 100% sure, I'll most likely rig Project E in DS due to their rigging tools, and because apparently DS can export Poser WM. The programming of the dependencies will happen in Poser though. I hope to make it compatible with DS 4.x series and Poser 7 thru 10. DS3? hmm, I just don't know it. Matthacker over at Affect3D had some useful tips for that but I'll need to recap on his advice.

Ok that's it for now.

Here are some more screenshots of the development so far.


  1. A hat tip to you sir, for taking the time to create what should have existed for a long time. And I agree with you on Dawn. For all the hype that surrounded this figure, she is really no better than what's currently available and in some ways, not as good. When I downloaded her and first brought her up in Poser, the first thing I did was look at the mesh in the crotch. My reaction was, "Fuck. Really?" And then I bent the thigh. It appeared that something was broken. I closed down Poser and haven't loaded her since.

  2. Ero, could you check your emails tonight please? Before I post a reaction to this entry, I must check a couple things with you :)

  3. Agreed, Matt. When I loaded her I found her very butchy too :p
    PS: Ero, check mail again :)

  4. Not much for me to say Ero, because you, and I are completely on the same. All of your analysis is as if directly out of my own cerebral.

    I didn't know you were in a spat at Rendo....You didn't even enlist my back up. What's up with that bro?

    1. Also, that image with the knee bent, with the cracks...I'm assuming that's to be re-worked, but I'm looking at the way the shin bends into the thigh...DUDE!....that knee!...That is totally awesome!

    2. just a quick reply (watching movie with my gal) yeah the spat was so short I didn't have time to round up the gang. Next time, I'll be sure to find you!

      Refresh the post and at the bottom you'll see a better version of the knee-bending. But even that has to be improved. First some researching.

      check ya'll later!

  5. And now, an actual reaction...

    Simon's Big F.....g Rant
    You know, this is all very sad and funny at the same time. Daz, Rosity, Hivewire3D, all so prude about not getting associated with porn or potential kinky materials. If hypocrisy was a type of hemorrhagic fever, I see some people out that who'd have blood spraying out of every bodily orifice. Why? Here's why:

    Reason 1: Don't bite the feeding hand.
    People who truly generate money out of their poser renders are not legion, by far and just as well, a good chunk of these happy few make "mindless porn" . No real story, gigantic boobs and cocks that no human being could even have in the real world, etc, etc. What I would call the "tasteless" kind of porn. So really, looking down on these people is like shooting one's own foot for a merchant/creator
    group. We all know why Renderotica is still up after all these years: because there is a healthy (yes, I mean it) customer base for it.

    Reason 2: Remain leveled and humble
    You won't wash away criticism by attempting to insult your critic's personal work. Now, Erogenesis' art (and here I am talking to you, the frowning-overporn people) carries not only sex, but also action in the old blockbuster sense and, very rare: humour. A quality many censors lack, the ol' sense of humour.
    When it comes all down to it, a human figure is a human figure: it should be as faithful to the original as it can be. And to those whose prudeness has something religious to it, I shall humbly remind you that even Adam and Eve, on the oldest pictures we find of them, had genitalias despite having no navels (they
    were the firsts, if we read the book).

    Reason 3: Look out the window! Reality check!
    There is no point in trying to steer far away from the concept of sex in poser art as if it were a taboo and unclean thing that one must keep out of our favourite hobby: that battle was long lost way befor the first genital kits made it to the market.

    Reason Number Four: Instead of whining, USE it!
    When a product comes out, the worst thing that can happen is not to get any negative feedback. Perfection is not of this world and anyone who claims to go towards it needs to take in all and every comment and improve things from there, no matter how proud they are of their creation. It's a matter of why you released it in the first place: to achieve real success, or just to have your ego flattered. Some people tell you that the hip section has too few
    polygons or that this or that joint doesn't bend nicely enough? That's priceless data. Nobody's a prophet in his own
    country, mates. Live with it.

    As for myself, I'll just wait for Project E, if that's all the same to you people. I've seen what has been done with Lali
    and I had been waiting for something like that for about fifteen years. It can only get even better at it won't be some half-assed prudish product meant for monks. Tons of poser products have made me a happy camper over the last decade, let's just say that Genesis, Dawn and the untweaked daz humans are not part of it. I like my curry with LOTS of spice, thank you very much!

  6. E, I'm sorry that you, of all people, have to put up with such petty crapola. There are a number of people at Rendo who appear to be congenital idiots, with nothing better to do than criticize everything. You know what they say about opinions and assholes; how true it is over there.

    Keep up the good work, lad; if you ever need backup in a flame war (or a shooting war), let me know. Illegitimi non carborundum!

  7. I have to say this all looks amazing and you have clearly been hard at work. As far as the pornography thing is considered; I have to agree with you. There is a difference between flat out gratuitous sex and having a storyline and a sense of humor to go along with it. For instance those 'spoof' porn movies; I wouldn't really consider pornographic until the sex happens and even then it has to get a little dirty before it becomes porn. I have always seen your comics as 'Erotica' if anything. The rest of the people are probably jealous that they don't have the balls to give it a try themselves, of course I am being facetious here and people who respond negatively to this comment should keep it to themselves because I will not be responding.

  8. You are doing amazing work here, my friend. The reason this complete renovation of V4 didn't happen was because of how daunting the task was, and here you are... taking on the bull by the horns. I commend you immensely and have only the utmost respect for your and your work.

    The topology of this figure needs work in my opinion to flow better in the genital/buttocks area. Elsewhere you got it spot on I think. I am very excited about the large poly count in the genital region. Looking forward to sculpting my own morphs there as well as using the large amount I expect you'll include (if Lali's Bits was any indication).

    I really hope you use a weight mapping like Poser Place's V4-WM. They have done the most fantastic shoulder, elbow, knee, and hip bends ever. Please seek out their guidance. I already talked to the person over at RDNA who is the one most in charge of it's support at this point. I believe I sent you their contact info a month or so ago and told them you'd be reaching out to them. If you haven't already, please do.

    Are the UVs you posted finalized? I would really prefer a separate map for the genitalia, so we can use high res diffuse and displacement maps for detail in extreme close ups. The vendor 3D Universe has a texture converter that can convert textures between figures like a V3 to a V4. You might want to contact them to see about getting your own retopologized V4 added to the database. Unless you plan on creating your own texture converter (wouldn't surprise me... you love making work for yourself!).

    I am eager to check this out. If you need beta testing, email me.

  9. Hey guys! I forgot to thank everyone for the awesome comments and complements! Just a note to say that Project E is still 100% on I've just set it aside for the comic. I cannot guarantee that she'll be featured in the comic but I'm going to give it my best shot in a few weeks time.

    Check here for more info:

  10. Astonishing, bloody hell babe I want her! I will be gentle with her, trust me ;)

    You know I am not up with the technical stuff, I just make pretty pictures and P-E will make that task a lot easier!

  11. I really like where you are going with this project and looking forward to the release date.

    Regarding companys releasing human models (mostly females) without genitals, i find them ridiculous!
    Who are they to state that female genitals are something dirty and shameful? Every women with self respect should boycott their stores.

    I remeber when Hiveiwire released Dawn, they stated that the lack of genitalia originated from the intent that the model should be used for educational purposes.
    Im very glad that im not a part of such educational system.

    Daz is hiding their cunt in a $100 bundle, to afraid/moralistic to even show a picture of it.

    And for people that look down on porn/erotica in 3D, why is that?
    Peronally i think it has the highest artistic value in the Poser/Daz world, I pay more respect to an erotic/pornografic artist than 99% of the stupid images displayed in galleries at Rendo and their likes.

    Why is 3D porn considered bad? It should be the other way around me thinks.
    No real humans are being used and thats a good thing, No one in a 3D scene is being forced to dipslay or have their body used just to put food on their table.
    No one in a 3D scene has to put up all kind of shit in front of a camera just to raise money for a bad drug habbit.

    Your work is much appreciated and should stand as a role model for creators of 3D humanoids out there.


Hey, because of a sudden influx of spam, I need to moderate comments from now on, unfortunately. I'll try find a work-around in the meanwhile. Cheers!